Jack meets John at the church to talk. John is asleep in a pew and feels at a conversational disadvantage when he awakens. Jack reveals his own lack of religious conviction and his habit of lying. Jack mentions hearing about an African American regiment from Iowa that served in the Civil War. John confirms that there used to be African American families in Gilead, but they left after their church was set on fire. Jack refers to Karl Barth, a Swiss theologian and author whom John admires. Jack asserts that Barth was critical of American religion. John reacts defensively and emotionally, declaring that religious Truth is independent of humanity and that one cannot judge the authenticity of anyone’s religion. John starts to cry, and Jack apologizes. John wonders what he should do next.

John ponders Jack’s spiritual skepticism but believes he can’t “save” Jack by coming from a posture of defense, as there are no proofs to offer the skeptic. His own father’s defensiveness spilled over onto John after Edward denied the church. John admits he also has trouble controlling his temper.

John fears that Jack would harm his family and is uneasy about the “understanding” (180) that Lila and Jack seem to have.